It’s almost as if the aliens are just slowly turning the pages of a book and we are going through the way they want this thing to be unraveled. They could have told us in 1947 what was going on but they’re just slowly taking us along a path. That’s what is so important about this mental aspect thing is that if you take a look at the UFO history and you look at stuff, you see that the things that are happening now did not happen.

In 1975 it was a completely different world. The things that happened then don’t happen now. Ground trace, for example. You used to hear stories about aliens landing, ground traces. Little aliens walking around with little rods outside of their crafts. It does not happen anymore. There are no reports. There used to be hundreds a year. There’s none. It’s like the aliens are taking us down a path and this mental phenomena is part of what they’re doing.

There are some incredible stories inside the UFO community that show that they are doing this kind of stuff. For example, let me give you one. The Rendlesham Forest story is one of the top stories in UFO and that’s a story about a craft landing at a U.S. Air Force base in Britain and the people going out and touching the craft and seeing this stuff. All sorts of reports and stuff like this. James Penniston, who is one of the main people who was at the site, gets near the craft and he touches the craft.

He’s been interviewed and he talks about this message that he gets. It’s a message that comes in zeroes and ones and they later put the message together. It’s a 14-page long message of zeroes and ones. And he gets this message and it has this interpretation. I won’t get into the interpretation. But he’s interviewed about a year and a half ago and he was asked, “This 14-page message of zeroes and ones, you had to put it down, you got it instantly in your head when you touched the craft. Could you do it again?” And Penniston said, “Yes. I could write the message again.”

Fourteen pages of zeroes and ones and he can actually re-do that message. Not just an ordinary message from a mailing. Incredible message that is 32 years later, he can still remember the message, every dot, every zero in that message for 14 pages. That’s an incredible thing and that’s the aliens giving something to us that is not just a message. It’s an incredible message.

Or the story of the most famous abductee in UFO history now is Stan Romanek. A lot of people will say this guy’s a hoaxer. One of the things that he’s incredibly known for is getting these very complex formulas, mathematical formulas that he just suddenly gets up in the middle of the night and starts writing these formulas. Under hypnosis he writes these very complex formulas. One of the formulas was a formula by one of the top people who was involved in the mind control and remote viewing program, Dr. Hal Puthoff, who ran the SRI program for 25 years for the CIA.

One of his formulas he’s gotten out of the mind aspect, the remote viewing. He’s gotten into the UFO thing, into zero-point energy. One of the formulas that Stan Ramanek writes is one of the formulas that had only been published one time in the world and it was a formula by Hal Puthoff on zero-point energy, and this abductee gets it.

So you get these not just ordinary messages. You’re getting these things as if the aliens are putting this in here and actually taking us along a path and giving us stuff that we would have not have gotten on our own. They are leading us so that—they’re covering it up but they’re gradually releasing it. Now I’ll say the disclosure, when we finally find out what’s going on with UFOs, is when the aliens tell us.

Alex Tsakiris: Yeah, and boy, there’s just so much there to pull apart. I just can’t leave that without touching on one point that I think you make and that’s that to understand the government deception and the government cover-up, one of the things you bring to the table is to say it doesn’t have to be masterminded if you just look at it from the national security lens. You can have a lot of people that can just be set off to do a task that’s purely national security and it can wind up looking very nefarious from a high level when in fact they’re just hey, we have to make sure that we’re on top of this kind of thing.

Let me leave that for a minute because there’s a lot to pull apart there. What I really want to do is circle back around now and talk about some of the things that you’re talking about from these other glimpses we’re getting of expanded human consciousness and see how they might fit together. Then I think we can’t even really talk about the aliens versus us and this time versus that time. I think all those things start to get a little bit fuzzy.

The person I bring into this discussion I mentioned earlier is Joe McMoneagle, who we had a chance to interview a few months ago, and of course is Psychic Spy #001. One of the anecdotes he told that I thought was just fascinating is he sits down with Hal Puthoff at Stanford Research Institute and as you just said, Hal has been hired by the CIA to figure out this remote secret spy thing and how we can spy on the Russians using psychics.

He looks over at his file that they unsealed, that is totally Secret, no one can get into it, and there is a copy of Raymond Moody’s Life After Life book. The reason why this is relevant is because Joe McMoneagle has had a very profound near-death experience while he’s an Intelligence officer for the United States in Germany. In this near-death experience he leaves his body and is having an out-of-body experience and then goes to Heaven and encounters this being that for any other way we’d talk about it is God and makes this connection at this level of consciousness that is clearly way above our level of consciousness and gets this mental download.

Again, you’re talking about the Rendlesham Forest case. You look at near-death experiencers or many other spiritually-transformative experiences that have been reported throughout time, whether they’re Kundalini or Christian experiences. Often there’s this download of information that just gets put into the brain and sometimes they can’t even repeat it when they get back. But there is this higher order of consciousness. So don’t we have to start trying to make that connection too, and try and see how the whole thing fits together?

Grant Cameron: Yes, but it’s still a big package of unknowns. I mean, you sort of get the connection that you can get these downloads, that consciousness is an extremely integral part that may be the whole thing. That consciousness is like the Eastern philosophies.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. Maybe fundamental.

Grant Cameron: That consciousness is the basis of the whole thing. In the Western world, and I have some problems with science. I always say science is not there to solve a problem for us because science is basically, if you take a look, John Alexander who’s a high-level military guy who’s gotten into the mind and into UFOs and stuff, he always mentions the fact that in the National Academy of Sciences, the higher the level you get of science, the more they disbelieve any sort of phenomenology, whether it be UFOs or mental phenomena or remote viewing or stuff like that.

At the National Academy of Sciences level only 4% of the people believe in phenomenology. They have nothing to do with it. So basically you have like Atheists. Phenomenology Atheists. The UFO community always wants scientists to run the program and I say, “No. Keep them out of it because they’re tainted by sort of a Christian religion where everything is material. That you have a God with a beard and we’re going to go to Heaven with streets paved of gold. I think you have to move away from that into sort of an Eastern philosophy thing.”

But as I say, I’m one, you might have Colin Anders, you have Steven Greer, you have maybe a dozen people in the UFO community who believe strongly that that consciousness is a basic core of this phenomenon. The rest of them would say this is absolutely nonsense. This is crazy. This is nuts-and-bolts. Don’t talk to me about this consciousness stuff. It’s nuts. It’s not well-received in the UFO community.

It’s a very new aspect and I’m saying to the UFO community now we’d better start taking a look seriously at this, as nutty as it might have appeared in the 1950s. This is what’s going to give us the answer to what is going on here. If you start looking at the nature of consciousness, the nature of the universe. Is it really a material universe? How does it work? This entanglement property, all these advanced physics ideas. But we are very, very far away. I don’t think we really understand very much of it.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. Of course we don’t. But, Grant, it’s interesting what you say because when you take even a small step back from the UFO phenomena as we’ve talked about here, it becomes obvious that consciousness and this extended human consciousness or alien consciousness is central to it. It’s funny that there’s this controversy within your community about a phenomena that jumps right out at you from all the different angles that we’ve talked about.

I’ll tell you, from my perspective, and we’ve been at the extended human consciousness work of others through this show for a number of years, the next step is the spiritual aspect. The parapsychologists, let’s say, the parapsychology and the psi community that we’ve talked to a lot here, if I could roll in also the near-death experience science community or the out-of-body experience science community. All those have a similar blind spot in that they want to look at consciousness and extended human consciousness but they always have this kind of soft spot for scientific materialism.

They wind up saying some of the same things that you have in that we haven’t understood it or don’t understand it completely and all the rest of that. I really have been pushing things in another direction and that’s that all the reports of this extended consciousness we talk about very quickly get to this spiritual connection. I’m not talking about it from my personal spirituality. I’m just talking about it as a core part of the phenomena; a core part of the experience.

Joe McMoneagle, who is deep, deep in this stuff, he doesn’t talk about his near-death experience as being just a mental experience. He talks about it being a spiritual union with a consciousness that is of a higher order and from his perception, is of a much, much, much higher order. That may be offensive or upset people who are strong Atheists and as you point out, which is really more of an anti-Christian thing, but I’m not talking about anyone’s personal spiritual beliefs or personal religious beliefs.

I’m just saying the spiritual aspect is clearly a core part of this phenomena and I just wonder if anyone in the UFO research community has gotten there. I think John Mack was kind of headed there but John Mack, of course, a Harvard psychologist who got interested in the abduction phenomena and did a lot of research in talking to abductees and came to the conclusion that it was psycho-spiritual. So where has that whole line of research gone within the UFO community?

Grant Cameron: Boy, absolutely there’s a division there but what I always point out is it comes down to the male and female thing. I know you’ve been to UFO conferences but if you go to UFO conferences you’ll see a real separation between men and women. Men are into the hardware, they’re into the technology. How does this thing fly? Where’s it from? And if you take a look at women, they are into the spiritual aspects of the thing.

We’ve got to take a look at what the women are doing and what the men are doing and that it is a unity of the two. But right now it’s still a separation. You have the men who are into the hardware and you have the women who are into the spiritual, the experiences of people. They will go a lot farther in looking at the abduction experience as being almost a spiritual experience.

But if you talk to men you’ll talk to Robert Collins and his abduction experiences. They’re evil. They’re here; we have to try to fight them off. So you have the men who are basically saying it’s an evil type thing, a national security thing. We’ve got to fight it. And the women are at a higher level. There is a real division inside the UFO community.

The reality, I think, is going to fall where you describe it that it’s going to be more of a spiritual experience. We’re sort of influenced by the government that everybody’s an enemy and it all comes down to us versus them. So we see all the aliens, we see all the latest UFO movies it’s always the great Americans bringing freedom and democracy to the world, fighting off these evil aliens who are trying to take over the world. Whereas that’s not what I think it is.

If the aliens wanted to take over and destroy us they could have done it 100 years ago. Why would they wait? It’s not. It’s more of a spiritual development of the Earth at their pace as they unfold this thing for us. The women have already caught on to how this works.

Alex Tsakiris: One last area I’d like to get into, and it’s been great talking. I appreciate all the time you’ve spent on this. You obviously have not only a passion for this but you’ve matched it with a deep, deep knowledge. I really respect and admire the way that you’ve gone about researching this and filling this unexplainable void that we have out there in terms of why an independent researcher like you has to be filing hundreds of FOA requests and gathering and publishing this data while we have this huge apparatus in the media that is just completely blind to it. Let me get off of that pedestal.

I want to talk about the psychedelic connection because another guest we’ve had on this show is Dr. Rick Strassman, who was at the University of New Mexico. As far as I know he’s the only researcher who was given permission to study the effects of DMT on subjects. So he gathered up a bunch of students there at New Mexico and gave them rather high doses of DMT. They saw not only aliens but fairies and other independent entities that seemed to operate in this other realm.

And of course this work with psychedelics is mirrored by many other researchers. Anyone can go and Google “Terence McKenna” and you can get all sorts of interesting ideas about the connection here. What are your thoughts on what the psychedelic community and the psychedelic research and what we’ve found out? What’s your thoughts on how that might connect to all this?

Grant Cameron: I don’t really know. I have really not thought about it except as you’re describing it, it’s sort of like this small percentage of reality that we really understand. When you get into these different states of mind that everything sort of changes. I really don’t have much of an opinion except that it just shows how limited our knowledge of reality is. We really are just starting out. You’re probably going to need another 30 years of experiments and somebody getting an insight on a new experiment that will nail down what’s actually going on there.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. What I think a lot of folks don’t realize is that the materialism in science mirrors the materialism in our culture. So our materialistic society and how we’re materialists and how George Bush says, “Don’t worry about the Iraq war, just go shopping,” the connection is real. It’s not some abstract connection; it’s real. It’s only in a world that you construct where it’s just about matter; it’s about goods; it’s about survival, that you’re able to rationally do these things. To gather things and then go bomb other people.

If you have this expanded view that says we’re all somehow connected, and we don’t have to understand what that means, but we’re all connected, our idea of time is not what we think it is, as soon as those things break down you can’t run a nation-state. You certainly can’t go bomb other people and do all the other crazy stuff. You can’t deny basic water and health and the things that we do to all these people so we can—you just can’t run the game.

And I’m not saying that’s necessarily good or bad because hell, I have too many advantages to say that. I banged my head against that when I first got into this. It was like, gosh, darn it, why aren’t these scientists looking into this? If only they knew! It’s like hey, the whole process, the whole system is orchestrated so that anyone who has that awareness is kicked out from the beginning. You can’t have those yahoos running it and saying the Emperor has no clothes.

You’re coming at it from a whole different perspective and saying, “Hey, the UFOs are running the show.” I come at it from another perspective and say, “Hey, as a nonreligious person, as a non-Christian, God is in control. God is clearly in control.” When these near-death experiencers die, they tell you they see God. You just can’t get past that.

And it’s funny because I’ve talked to a bunch of near-death experience researchers. I just had a great interview with a guy who I think is one of the real champions of that, Melvin Morrison. We had this discussion and he came to the same thing. He said, “You’re right. I have to play around with that concept because imagine this.” He’s an outsider. He’s a near-death experience researcher. He’s a physician, pediatrician. Teaches at a hospital. But he’s still an outsider, right? He’s ostracized because he researches NDE stuff.

But even within the NDE community he’s an outsider if he goes and says, “Well, yeah, they do talk about God and we have to figure out what that would mean.” That higher-higher-higher-higher-higher-higher consciousness that we would then call God. We have to factor that into the equation. We can’t just waffle it and say, “Well, yeah, maybe we’re all connected in some way.” You know, that’s not what the best evidence is telling us. The best evidence is telling us that there’s something pretty close to what we’ve always been told is God.

And with all these different religions and wisdom traditions and Native Americans and Aborigines have always pointed to and said, “There’s like a real, real high guy up there and that’s God and that’s more than all this other stuff.” So that’s where I’m coming at it from. That’s just a hard thing to get over, given the way we’ve orchestrated the whole deal that we have to work inside of our materialistic world.

Grant Cameron: Yeah. You’ve just got to transfer that sort of God thing to find a way to make a buck out of it and then people would accept it. Or take the threat out. I’ve mentioned numerous times in the UFO community if you take a look at the interaction between abductees and the aliens, it is actually direct ESP. Direct mind-to-mind interaction. The ESP experiments that have been run by humans have all this noise-to-signal ratio that’s bad at the best of times. Here it’s like there’s absolute no noise whatsoever. There are just interactions.

So if you look at that, that’s a major threat to say, governments. If you can read somebody’s mind, what do you if you’re a politician now running for the 2012 election. You stand up to make a speech and everybody knows exactly what you’re thinking? There is no scam anymore. That, to me, to an establishment is something like let’s keep this out of here. This is not something we want.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. But if I can make one more point and drill into this, I’d be interested to get your opinion on this. And that’s that I just can’t stress this enough so I’m going to stress it one more time. I’m not coming at this from a religious perspective. I don’t have any agenda to push in terms of any religion or even any kind of spirituality. I just come at it from looking at the facts. And the facts are the abductees don’t talk about the aliens as being God. They see this level of consciousness that is greater than them but they don’t see it as God.

And God here is just a placeholder. People are going to freak out. They do all the time whenever you say God. But a placeholder for a very, very high consciousness. And the people who have the Kundalini experience, who have the spontaneous prayer experience, who have the near-death experience in particular, they do talk about “God.”

I don’t see too many people really making that differentiation. They just go in and say, “Oh, yeah, well, the abductees had this ESP experience or this out-of-body experience so it’s like the aliens are God.” Well, you know what? I don’t know if that’s true or not but the data that we do have suggests that it’s something very different and that people know when they’re encountering something like God. They can differentiate when they’re encountering something like an alien consciousness.

Grant Cameron: It’s at a lower level. It’s like a lower frequency or whatever. It’s the same sort of experience. Like consciousness would explain everything from God all the way down to the most basic material things. It’s all still consciousness. It’s sort of different vibrations at different levels and so your ESP that’s happening at the alien level is at a higher level than what we have talking to each other on the Earth. I started out and that was my experience.

Before UFOs I was at the university and my major was religion and I did the near-death experience thing. I talked to the different chaplains and asked all the weird questions of the various chaplains like, “Were there any miracles? Did anybody ever predict their death? Did they tell you exactly when they were going to die?” I had all these weird things that surrounded death. There definitely was a religious aspect to the thing that’s different than the UFO interaction between aliens.

I went to chaplains rather than ministers because with chaplains there’s no garbage there. It’s basically they’re dealing with dying people all the time. They’re not there trying to recruit you to the Roman Catholic religion or the Lutheran religion or whatever. It’s basically they’re dealing with dying people and that’s who I wanted to talk to. It’s like when you come to death there’s no more crap. Everybody’s telling the truth; everybody’s basically telling you the way it is.

And Atheists. I had numerous ones where, “Did you ever have an Atheist? Did they ever come back with a near-death experience?” It still came down to this higher God-thing, which as you say, it’s different than the alien thing. But we’re just looking at different levels of this consciousness thing, that it’s all consciousness.

But in the UFO community, people do not understand that. They’re still at this basic level of nuts-and-bolts, us versus them, military aspects. There is a difference but it’s still consciousness. It’s whatever level you’re at that is explaining the same thing. Once you understand consciousness you can put them into different levels and explain what’s going on. But we’re so much in the material world that consciousness really hasn’t been researched very much by anybody. That’s the basic problem we have.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. Hey Grant, tell us what’s going on, what’s coming up for you in terms of books, appearances, anything like that.

Grant Cameron: I’m re-doing this book that we did in 1990 that basically tells the story about Wilbert Smith and going to the States and Dr. Eric Walker and we go into Area 51, the updated story of Area 51 that gives the reality. That’s being republished. Richard Dolan is going to republish that within the next three to four months.

Basically I’m giving the consciousness lecture. I think this is, as I said, one of three top periods in my life. The one was when I had the UFO sighting; one when I saw Dr. Michael Newton speak about Life Between Lives, and the third was when I had this consciousness thing last year at Phoenix. I’m giving this consciousness lecture first in England in the beginning of August. Then in Philadelphia. At the end of September I’m giving the consciousness lecture at the UFO Conference next February in Phoenix, Arizona. Then I’ll be giving it in Orlando in May.

So it’ll be the same lecture and as it will be a more developed lecture as I go along. But this is the lecture I’m giving now. I’m saying it’s the most important thing the UFO community now has to learn. This is a critical thing. If you want to understand what’s going on and understand the fact that the government has always known this, you’d better start looking at this aspect of consciousness because we have entirely missed the boat. We are floundering around, still looking at sightings and tracking sightings and stuff.

I think we have missed one of the key aspects of the whole phenomenon which gives us a lot of the answers as to what’s going on with UFOs. And that is the consciousness thing. It’s a consciousness lecture and Colin Andrews is going to follow me in London. He’s giving the consciousness lecture. He knows mine; we’re exchanging information on consciousness. He’s going to give the one on the crop circles again about consciousness and crop circles.

I think you’ll see it slowly move into the UFO community. It will be fought by a lot of people but this is, as I said, this is something the UFO community has missed and I’m going to start talking about it. To me it was a revelation. I was missing it, as well.

Alex Tsakiris: Great. So for more information, www.presidentialufo.com.

Grant Cameron: I appreciate your time and your interest. It’s strange to see somebody else outside of the UFO community take this interest and I’m glad you did. I hope that our two communities have more interactions because I think we have something to offer each other that will help each of us understand what the other side is doing and help us understand the answers we need in our field.

Alex Tsakiris: I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s this never-ending process of opening yourself up to more and more of what’s out there. It’s always a little uncomfortable. I’m sure some listeners to this show are a little uncomfortable, tip-toeing into the UFO field. But gosh darn it, you just have to follow the stuff wherever it leads. That’s really our charter, isn’t it? We just have to go where it takes us.

Grant Cameron: You got it.

Alex Tsakiris: Well, thanks so much for joining us today. I just am delighted with the way this came out and I hope people enjoy it.

Grant Cameron: Beautiful. Thanks, Alex.

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